Swimming pool lighting with 90.1

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Hello,

I have two concrete cases where I'm embarrassed regarding lighting in a swimming pool with 90.1.
Case 1 : A swimming pool building (the building is a swimming pool)
In the lighting section of 90.1, the Building Area Method (9.5) has no building area type corresponding specifically to a swimming pool. My guess would be to choose the "Gymnasium" because as a swimming pool, there is high ceiling and locker room.

Using the Building Area Method, is the "Gymnasium" a correct assumption for a swimming pool building ?

Case 2 : A swimming pool in a residential building
Assuming that the "multifamily"'s LPD doesn't allow me to comply to the Building Area Method, and I decide to choose the space by space method. My guess would be to choose a building-specific space type in the list "Sport Arena", but I'm block by these unanswered question : what is the meaning of the class ? :

? Court sport arena - class 4

? Court sport arena - class 2

? Court sport arena - class 1

Using the Space by Space Method, what would be the best building-specific space type for the area dedicated to the pool ?

Thanks,

Julien

Julien Dutel, ing., CEM, CMVP.
Direction des secteurs r?sidentiel, institutionnel et des affaires
Bureau de l'efficacit? et de l'innovation ?nerg?tiques
Minist?re des Ressources naturelles
5700, 4e Avenue Ouest, B-406
Qu?bec (Qu?bec) G1H 6R1
T?l?phone : 418 627-6379, poste 8060
T?l?phone sans frais : 1 877 727-6655
T?l?copieur : 418 643-5828
http://www.efficaciteenergetique.mrn.gouv.qc.ca

Julien.Dutel at mern.gouv.qc.ca's picture
Joined: 2015-06-05
Reputation: 0

Hi Julien,

For either case, and even if the pools are interior to the building, I
would consider citing ?Lighting for swimming pools and water features? is
under the exempted list for exterior lighting power calculations under
90.1-2010, and more broadly ?athletic playing areas? under 90.1-2007.

Evoking that exception, you could

A) have the baseline match the proposed (for a PRM model),

B) omit that lighting power entirely (for demonstrating prescriptive
compliance), or else

C) the stage is then set for you to differentiate from the baseline by
demonstrating how your design saves energy relative to ?standard? pool
lighting by way of separate/exceptional calculations.

If you want to wrap into your interior LPD regardless,

1. Gymnasium/Sports Arena/Exercise Center seem to be the likely
candidates for BAM.

2. Class I through Class IV comes from IESNA Handbook/RP-6, and is
used to differentiate illuminance recommendations based upon the degree of
competition (ranging from professional/national at Class I down to
amateur/recreational at class IV). I?d suggest having your lighting
designer determine which set of illumination recommendations best matches
the photometric calculations for pool surface/deck surface illumination.

~Nick

*NICK CATON, P.E.*
*Owner*

*Caton Energy Consulting*
1150 N. 192nd St., #4-202

Shoreline, WA 98133
office: 785.410.3317

www.catonenergy.com

*From:* Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On Behalf
Of *Julien.Dutel at mern.gouv.qc.ca
*Sent:* Thursday, June 04, 2015 7:42 AM
*To:* bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
*Subject:* [Bldg-sim] Swimming pool lighting with 90.1

Hello,

I have two concrete cases where I?m embarrassed regarding lighting in a
swimming pool with 90.1.

*Case 1 : A swimming pool building (the building is a swimming pool)*

In the lighting section of 90.1, the Building Area Method (9.5) has no
building area type corresponding specifically to a swimming pool. My guess
would be to choose the ?Gymnasium? because as a swimming pool, there is
high ceiling and locker room.

Using the Building Area Method, is the ?Gymnasium? a correct assumption for
a swimming pool building ?

*Case 2 : A swimming pool in a residential building*

Assuming that the ?multifamily??s LPD doesn?t allow me to comply to the
Building Area Method, and I decide to choose the space by space method. My
guess would be to choose a building-specific space type in the list ?Sport
Arena?, but I?m block by these unanswered question

: what is the meaning of the class ? :

? Court sport arena ? class 4

? Court sport arena ? class 2

? Court sport arena ? class 1

Using the Space by Space Method, what would be the best building-specific
space type for the area dedicated to the pool ?

Thanks,

Julien

*Julien Dutel,* ing., CEM, CMVP*.*

Direction des secteurs r?sidentiel, institutionnel et des affaires

Bureau de l'efficacit? et de l'innovation ?nerg?tiques

Minist?re des Ressources naturelles

5700, 4e Avenue Ouest, B-406

Qu?bec (Qu?bec) G1H 6R1

T?l?phone : 418 627-6379, poste 8060

T?l?phone sans frais : 1 877 727-6655

T?l?copieur : 418 643-5828

http://www.efficaciteenergetique.mrn.gouv.qc.ca

Nicholas Caton's picture
Offline
Joined: 2014-12-09
Reputation: 0

Hi Nick,

The question was for a demonstrating prescriptive compliance.
Thanks for your quick and detailed answer (I?m really surprised that we could invoke an outdoor lighting exception for an interior lighting!)

Julien

De : Nicholas Caton [mailto:ncaton at catonenergy.com]
Envoy? : 4 juin 2015 11:54
? : Dutel, Julien (BEIE); bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Objet : RE: [Bldg-sim] Swimming pool lighting with 90.1

Hi Julien,

For either case, and even if the pools are interior to the building, I would consider citing ?Lighting for swimming pools and water features? is under the exempted list for exterior lighting power calculations under 90.1-2010, and more broadly ?athletic playing areas? under 90.1-2007.

Evoking that exception, you could

A) have the baseline match the proposed (for a PRM model),

B) omit that lighting power entirely (for demonstrating prescriptive compliance), or else

C) the stage is then set for you to differentiate from the baseline by demonstrating how your design saves energy relative to ?standard? pool lighting by way of separate/exceptional calculations.

If you want to wrap into your interior LPD regardless,

1. Gymnasium/Sports Arena/Exercise Center seem to be the likely candidates for BAM.

2. Class I through Class IV comes from IESNA Handbook/RP-6, and is used to differentiate illuminance recommendations based upon the degree of competition (ranging from professional/national at Class I down to amateur/recreational at class IV). I?d suggest having your lighting designer determine which set of illumination recommendations best matches the photometric calculations for pool surface/deck surface illumination.

~Nick

NICK CATON, P.E.
Owner

Caton Energy Consulting
1150 N. 192nd St., #4-202
Shoreline, WA 98133
office: 785.410.3317
www.catonenergy.com

Julien.Dutel at mern.gouv.qc.ca's picture
Joined: 2015-06-05
Reputation: 0

Hello Julien,

Usually, Nick?s advice is spot on, but I have to disagree that it would be appropriate to apply an exception for exterior lighting to an indoor pool. I expect the exclusion for outdoor playing fields, etc relates to light pollution limitations, allowing player safety to supersede the restrictions. This would be akin to using the parking garage and parking lot lighting to be sued interchangeably. Keep in mind that exterior lighting is a mandatory provision and interior lighting is a prescriptive measure ? apples and oranges. I think you are on the right track with the gymnasium alternatives. Section 3 includes specific definitions for interior versus exterior spaces and that should be what determines whether you use Table 9.4.5 or 9.5.1/9.6.1.

Just my 2 cents J

Cam Fitzgerald

Energy Opportunities/a 7group company

Cam Fitzgerald2's picture
Offline
Joined: 2012-12-14
Reputation: 1

Former lighting designer here.

You should use the "gymnasium" number, and use a space by space calc. If
you think about it, a natatorium is the same space size/volume and
occupancy as a gym, with similar footcandle requirements for both
recreation and competition. I have successfully used this on many LEED
EAc1 submittals. Electrical engineers for these projects use the gymnasium
number for COMCheck as well. It's definitely the norm.

Good luck!
Elizabeth

*Elizabeth Gillmor PE, LC, LEED AP*

*e n e r g e t i c s **consulting engineers, llc*
energetics-eng.com
c 303.619.0091

Anonymous's picture
Anonymous

Cam and Elizabeth are right, I did not pick up with certainty in my first
reading that both cases were indoor, so I figured it might be appropriate
to point out pools are more explicitly addressed on the exterior side of
things.

With the understanding the pools are definitely located in interior spaces,
you?re definitely going to be safer sticking to the indoor approaches if
that produces acceptable results.

Space-by-space is naturally likely to produce better results if you can
justify any of the higher Class LPD?s.

~Nick

*NICK CATON, P.E.*
*Owner*

*Caton Energy Consulting*
1150 N. 192nd St., #4-202

Shoreline, WA 98133
office: 785.410.3317

www.catonenergy.com

*From:* Elizabeth Gillmor [mailto:elizabeth at energetics-eng.com]
*Sent:* Thursday, June 04, 2015 10:31 AM
*To:* Cam Fitzgerald
*Cc:* Julien.Dutel at mern.gouv.qc.ca; ncaton at catonenergy.com;
bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
*Subject:* Re: [Bldg-sim] Swimming pool lighting with 90.1

Former lighting designer here.

You should use the "gymnasium" number, and use a space by space calc. If
you think about it, a natatorium is the same space size/volume and
occupancy as a gym, with similar footcandle requirements for both
recreation and competition. I have successfully used this on many LEED
EAc1 submittals. Electrical engineers for these projects use the gymnasium
number for COMCheck as well. It's definitely the norm.

Good luck!

Elizabeth

*Elizabeth Gillmor **PE, LC, LEED AP*

*e n e r g e t i c s **consulting engineers, llc*

energetics-eng.com

c 303.619.0091

Nicholas Caton's picture
Offline
Joined: 2014-12-09
Reputation: 0

What I have typically done for outdoor pools under 2007 is classify the
entire pool and deck as "plaza/special feature". That usually seems to be
more than enough, and I can usually claim a bit of savings too. But Nick's
approach also seems very reasonable; you could certainly call it exempt as
an athletic playing field, especially if you have a lap pool. That seems
to be supported by the language in 2010.

*Elizabeth Gillmor PE, LC, LEED AP*

*e n e r g e t i c s **consulting engineers, llc*
energetics-eng.com
c 303.619.0091

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