Specify Window Frame Type

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Hi,

Working on a LEED energy model in Trace. I typically use HAP, which allows
the input of a window frame type, and it then calculates the entire window
assembly U-value and SC, rather than just the glass.

I've had LEED reviewers come back and ask me for my window assembly
calcsand I was able to show how HAP was doing that
calc based on the frame type as well. However, I can't find anything
similar in Trace, and I'm getting nervous about how to show assembly
calculations to a LEED reviewer. I've had terrible luck in the past getting
assembly values from the manufacturer as well.

I spoke with CDS and they recommended modeling a small sliver of wall that
is representative of the frame, which seems quite tedious.

Has anyone either experienced this issue, and figured out a work around?

Thanks!

*Ben Hollon, *

--

------------------------------
Antella Consulting Engineers, inc.

1600 Genessee, Suite 260 * Kansas City, MO 64102 * Tele: (816) 421-0950 * Fax:
(816) 249-2439 * www.antella-inc.com

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well as in any attachments, is privileged and confidential and intended
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bhollon27's picture
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Build the window assembles in windows from LBNL and then put those assemblies into your Trace libraries. Put them into your model and explain to the reviewer how you did it.
R I C H A R D E L L I S O N BEAP, BEP, BEMP, BESA, CBEP, CDSM, CEA, CEM, CMVP, CTAB, DGCP, HBDP, LEED AP, PE Manager of Energy and Simulation Southland Industries 22340 Dresden Street, Suite 177 Dulles, VA 20166 Office: 703.834.5570 Direct: 703.
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In one case, I was able to get the NFRC calculation from the window manufacturer. This was on a design/build job where the windows had already been approved and purchased. I would add that it wasn't easy, the manufacturer would not help me until I got our GC involved. On another job that I'm currently working on, the architect provided a cut sheet for both the glass and the aluminum curtain wall system they are specifying. The curtain wall manufacturer's cut sheet had tables that listed the assembly u-values and SHGC's for different center of glass values (see attachment). I have not submtted this job yet but I hope the LEED reviewers will accept this approach. The manufacturer states the calculations are NFRC compliant.
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Why you don?t use apendix A values?

Soluciones Energ?ticas Sostenibles
www.ses-ingenieria.com
Bogota - Colombia
Tel +57 1 6192633

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [Trace-users] Specify Window Frame Type
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 16:17:34 -0500
From: Ben Hollon
To: trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org

Hi,

Working on a LEED energy model in Trace. I typically use HAP, which
allows the input of a window frame type, and it then calculates the
entire window assembly U-value and SC, rather than just the glass.

I've had LEED reviewers come back and ask me for my window assembly
calcs and I was able to show how HAP was doing that calc based on the
frame type as well. However, I can't find anything similar in Trace, and
I'm getting nervous about how to show assembly calculations to a LEED
reviewer. I've had terrible luck in the past getting assembly values
from the manufacturer as well.

I spoke with CDS and they recommended modeling a small sliver of wall
that is representative of the frame, which seems quite tedious.

Has anyone either experienced this issue, and figured out a work around?

Thanks!

*Ben Hollon, *

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Antella Consulting Engineers, inc.

1600 Genessee, Suite 260.Kansas City, MO 64102.Tele: (816) 421-0950.
Fax: (816) 249-2439 . www.antella-inc.com

DISCLAIMER: The information contained in this electronic communication,
as well as in any attachments, is privileged and confidential and
intended solely for use by the addressee(s). Any other use,
dissemination, or copying of this electronic communication is strictly
prohibited and is an interference with Antella Consulting Engineers,
inc. confidential business relationships. If you received this
communication in error, please notify me immediately and permanently
delete the original and any electronic or printed copies of this
electronic communication.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oscar Buchely L.'s picture
Joined: 2012-04-23
Reputation: 0

I am curious if others have used Kawneer's interpolation tables for assembly u-value on LEED submissions and had a good result.

I have in the past been somewhat puzzled what to put in the below entry field of Table 1.4 if I am relying on Kawneer's tables.

I imagine you could put "other" and say "manufacturer tables calculated per NFRC 100."

Is this acceptable / have others have had any issues?
Cross posting to bldg-sim as this has broader applicability than just Trace.

[cid:image002.jpg at 01CF4E9F.7BB7E690]

Aaron Dahlstrom, PE, LEED(r) AP
In Posse - A subsidiary of AKF| 1500 Walnut Street, Suite 1414, Philadelphia, PA 19102
d: 215-282-6753| m: 267-507-5470| In Posse: 215-282-6800| AKF: 212-354-5656
e: ADahlstrom at in-posse.com | in posse web: www.in-posse.com | akf web: www.AKFGroup.com

Dahlstrom, Aaron2's picture
Joined: 2011-09-30
Reputation: 4
According to Ashrae 90.1 (either 2007 or 2010) the fenestration must be labeled or in case of site built fenestration the installer or supplier must provide a certification listing the fenestration properties (see art 5.8.2). These are data that must be provided to the mechanical designer for performing the load calculations even before the modeling process; you can force either the Architect that is specifying the fenestration or the GC to provide the data otherwise they are not in compliance with Ashrae energy standard and so not meeting the LEED energy pre-requisite. It seems to me that using the window program or other mean to find the assembly performance is a burden that should not be on the mechanical designer or energy modeler. If you are lucky that the Architect has specified YKK AP products you can find on the YKK AP website "My Thermal Assistant" that calculates their products assembly U-factor, SHGC and VT per NFRC 100 and NFRC 200 in fast simple steps. Roberto Bisti E.I. Consultant Engineering Service, Inc. 811 W. 5th street, Suite 101 Winston-Salem, NC 27101 Ph 336.724.0139 x 103 Fax 336.724.1812
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Hi, In previous LEED models, I used FRAME Plus window analysis for Canadian projects, it's simple and fast. It's got built-in glass manufacturer values. The drawback Is it is very limited in frame type, so if you're lucky it will match your application. If not you could use LBNL Windows software. You then create a window type in your library with the overall calculated values. http://tools.enermodal.com/webframeplus/WebFRAME_MainPage.aspx [cid:image002.png at 01CF4FE3.E0E8D700] ________________________________ Denis Chabot, T.P., C.E.T., A? LEED Technicien sp?cialiste / Specialty Technician M?canique, B?timent / Mechanical Engineering, Buildings Engineering CIMA+ Partenaire de g?nie / Partners in Excellence 420, boul. Maloney Est, bureau 201 Gatineau QC J8P 1E7 CANADA T?l. bur.: 819-663-9294 poste 6433 / T?l?c. : 819-663-0084 Cell.: 819-209-0372 [cid:image001.gif at 01CF4FE2.2B784820] ________________________________ P Devez-vous vraiment imprimer ce courriel? Pensons ? l'environnement! Do you really need to print this email? Let's protect the environment! AVERTISSEMENT CONCERNANT LA CONFIDENTIALIT? Ce message est confidentiel. S'il ne vous est pas destin?, veuillez en informer l'?metteur imm?diatement et le d?truire int?gralement. CONFIDENTIALITY WARNING This e-mail is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete it in its entirety. ________________________________ De : trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:trace-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] De la part de Ben Hollon Envoy? : April-02-14 5:18 PM ? : trace-users at lists.onebuilding.org Objet : [Trace-users] Specify Window Frame Type Hi, Working on a LEED energy model in Trace. I typically use HAP, which allows the input of a window frame type, and it then calculates the entire window assembly U-value and SC, rather than just the glass. I've had LEED reviewers come back and ask me for my window assembly calcs and I was able to show how HAP was doing that calc based on the frame type as well. However, I can't find anything similar in Trace, and I'm getting nervous about how to show assembly calculations to a LEED reviewer. I've had terrible luck in the past getting assembly values from the manufacturer as well. I spoke with CDS and they recommended modeling a small sliver of wall that is representative of the frame, which seems quite tedious. Has anyone either experienced this issue, and figured out a work around? Thanks! Ben Hollon, ________________________________ Antella Consulting Engineers, inc. 1600 Genessee, Suite 260 * Kansas City, MO 64102 * Tele: (816) 421-0950 * Fax: (816) 249-2439 * www.antella-inc.com DISCLAIMER: The information contained in this electronic communication, as well as in any attachments, is privileged and confidential and intended solely for use by the addressee(s). Any other use, dissemination, or copying of this electronic communication is strictly prohibited and is an interference with Antella Consulting Engineers, inc. confidential business relationships. If you received this communication in error, please notify me immediately and permanently delete the original and any electronic or printed copies of this electronic communication.
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