Modelling Heated Windows in eQuest

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Hello,

I am trying to model a building with heated windows (windows with heating
elements). The windows are not meant for comfort heating of the building.
Just localized heating for improving the comfort conditions in the
building. I have looked all over and couldn't find a way to model them. Can
someone suggest how I could go about this in eQuest?

Thank you.

Sincerely,
Hari

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." --Mark Twain

Hari Jammulamadaka's picture
Joined: 2015-07-30
Reputation: 0

Hari:
Could you possibly use Baseboard heating to simulate the heated windows? Baseboards are usually under windows anyway to mitigate transmission loads. Not sure how you measure the kBtu/kW of your windows, but you can translate into the same heating capacity.
See if the offered eQuest controls for Baseboard satisfy your requirements on the windows.

BASEBOARD-CTRL
Takes a code-word that specifies the control method for baseboard heating in the zone. Defines the control method as THERMOSTATIC using HEAT-TEMP-SCH as the setpoints, or OUTDOOR-RESET to allow BASEBOARD-SCH reset control. This is a zone-level keyword for PLENUM-type zones; it allows "baseboards" to be placed in plenums and allows the simulation of outside or space temperature controlled heaters in the return air space. The plenum heater is activated based on outside air temperature and reset schedule when it is outside controlled. When it is space temperature controlled, and if the interaction with the return air does not result in a temperature above the scheduled value, the heater is turned on. In either case, the source of energy input to the heater is defined by the specified or defaulted value for BASEBOARD-SOURCE. See also BASEBOARD-CTRL, THROTTLING-RANGE and BASEBOARD-RATING. Input for this keyword is the code-word that specifies the method used for controlling the output of the baseboard heating element in the zone.
THERMOSTATIC?????????? Baseboard heating is controlled by a thermostat located in the zone. The program assumes that the baseboards add heat as required, up to their maximum capacity, to maintain zone air temperature within the heating throttling range.If there is a heating load the baseboards are sequenced on first. If the baseboards cannot meet the entire heating load, heating from the zone's air system, if available, will then be activated.
OUTDOOR-RESET???????? Baseboard heating is controlled by a thermostat located outside the building. In this case the program assumes that the baseboard heating output increases linearly as the outside air temperature decreases. The linear function and the operating period are defined by SYSTEM:BASEBOARD-SCH.
John R. Aulbach, PELos Angeles Ca

Hello,

I am trying to model a building with heated windows (windows with heating elements). The windows are not meant for comfort heating of the building. Just localized heating for improving the comfort conditions in the building. I have looked all over and couldn't find a way to model them. Can someone suggest how I could go about this in eQuest?

Thank you.

Sincerely,
Hari

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do.? So throw off the bowlines.? Sail away from the safe harbor.? Catch the trade winds in your sails.? Explore.? Dream.? Discover."? --Mark Twain
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John Aulbach's picture
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Joined: 2011-09-30
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Baseboards are the only way I can think of to do it. The caution I have is that DOE-2 uses baseboard heating first before any other heating to satisfy zone heating requirements (including OA!). So, you would need to make sure the window-baseboard heater capacity (which is not auto-sized) is relatively small.

bfountain's picture
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Joined: 2011-09-30
Reputation: 201

A related elephant in the room: of the actual installed heating capacity
(i.e. ?what?s drawn?), only a fraction of that heat will find its way into
the conditioned space. That figure is what you?ll want to use for the
baseboard heating capacity, if you do decide to go that route.

Some years back, the same topic of ?active heating? windows came up with a
robust discussion thread. I?ve pasted what?s in my archive below for
reference. I?m not sure we came to any conclusive ?best practice?
suggestions, but the discussion should prove helpful in determining your
own path forward!

You might want to consider foregoing the idea of any of this heat will
substantially contribute to the interior conditions. Put another way, you
may assume most heat will migrate to the colder side of the glass, that is
the exterior. Running with that and in lieu of using baseboards, you could
perhaps more simply set up this energy as a direct process or meter load
with an on/off/temp schedule.

~Nick

*NICK CATON, P.E.*
*Owner*

*Caton Energy Consulting*
306 N Ferrel

Olathe, KS 66061

office: 785.410.3317

www.catonenergy.com

*From:* Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On
Behalf Of *bfountain at greensim.com
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2015 11:38 AM
*To:* 'Hari Jammulamadaka'; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
*Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] Modelling Heated Windows in eQuest

Baseboards are the only way I can think of to do it. The caution I have is
that DOE-2 uses baseboard heating first before any other heating to satisfy
zone heating requirements (including OA!). So, you would need to make sure
the window-baseboard heater capacity (which is not auto-sized) is
relatively small.

*From:* Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
] *On Behalf Of *John Aulbach
*Sent:* July-29-15 11:12 AM
*To:* Hari Jammulamadaka; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
*Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] Modelling Heated Windows in eQuest

Hari:

Could you possibly use Baseboard heating to simulate the heated windows?
Baseboards are usually under windows anyway to mitigate transmission loads.
Not sure how you measure the kBtu/kW of your windows, but you can translate
into the same heating capacity.

See if the offered eQuest controls for Baseboard satisfy your requirements
on the windows.

BASEBOARD-CTRL

Takes a code-word that specifies the control method for baseboard heating
in the zone. Defines the control method as THERMOSTATIC using HEAT-TEMP-SCH
as the setpoints, or OUTDOOR-RESET to allow BASEBOARD-SCH reset control.
This is a zone-level keyword for PLENUM-type zones; it allows "baseboards"
to be placed in plenums and allows the simulation of outside or space
temperature controlled heaters in the return air space. The plenum heater
is activated based on outside air temperature and reset schedule when it is
outside controlled. When it is space temperature controlled, and if the
interaction with the return air does not result in a temperature above the
scheduled value, the heater is turned on. In either case, the source of
energy input to the heater is defined by the specified or defaulted value
for BASEBOARD-SOURCE. See also BASEBOARD-CTRL, THROTTLING-RANGE and
BASEBOARD-RATING. Input for this keyword is the code-word that specifies
the method used for controlling the output of the baseboard heating element
in the zone.

THERMOSTATIC Baseboard heating is controlled by a thermostat
located in the zone. The program assumes that the baseboards add heat as
required, up to their maximum capacity, to maintain zone air temperature
within the heating throttling range.If there is a heating load the
baseboards are sequenced on first. If the baseboards cannot meet the entire
heating load, heating from the zone's air system, if available, will then
be activated.

OUTDOOR-RESET Baseboard heating is controlled by a thermostat
located outside the building. In this case the program assumes that the
baseboard heating output increases linearly as the outside air temperature
decreases. The linear function and the operating period are defined by
SYSTEM:BASEBOARD-SCH.

John R. Aulbach, PE

Los Angeles Ca

On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 6:49 AM, Hari Jammulamadaka <

Hello,

I am trying to model a building with heated windows (windows with heating
elements). The windows are not meant for comfort heating of the building.
Just localized heating for improving the comfort conditions in the
building. I have looked all over and couldn't find a way to model them. Can
someone suggest how I could go about this in eQuest?

Thank you.

Sincerely,

Hari

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." --Mark Twain

_______________________________________________
Equest-users mailing list
http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to
EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG

*From:* Bruce Easterbrook [mailto:bruce5 at bellnet.ca]
*Sent:* Thursday, August 12, 2010 7:59 PM
*To:* Nick Caton
*Cc:* Namrata Vora; Sami, Vikram; Sam Mason; Bishop, Bill;
equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
*Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] (no subject)

Nick you understand perfectly and Bill is the one you should be
listening to. This is what happens when marketing gets hold of something
without talking to engineering. It is all BS. I looked at both sites,
basically they are taking a low E thermopane and adding a third pane of
their heating glass. A real good 2 pane IGU will be about R-4.2, add
another pane and you could be in the R-7 range or a U value of .14, all
centre of glass. There is no way 2 pieces of glass in this 3 pane unit are
the same temperature. If the middle piece is almost the same temperature
as the warm inside piece that actually proves you have a huge amount of
heat moving to outside not to the inside. There will also be radiation,
and in this instance it will be significant as well. The reflective
properties of the low E glass will help, reflecting a certain percentage
back into the room as the glass should be throwing long wavelength
radiation but a significant portion will still flow through unless the low
E coat is thick enough, ie a mirror, which doesn't do much for looking
outside. Like you said earlier you have a radiator with a 70F room one
side and a winter night at -13F on the other side, it is not rocket science
to know in which direction most of the heat will flow.
Getting to the modelling using baseboards I don't think you can. A
baseboard is going to have a R-20 opaque surface behind it and the heated
glass is going to have a R-4 transparent surface behind it.
As far as I see it the only real benefit of this glass is you will be
able to run your humidity higher in the winter without having condensation
on the edges of the glass but at what I would estimate to be a significant
energy penalty. You would get most of these benefits just by having the
triple low E IGU with low conductivity spacers or by having curtains. You
will not heat a room with it and be able to pay the hydro bill. Note all
the conformances are for glass. I don't see any insulating window
certifications. Until these are tested no jurisdiction in NA will allow
you to use them with the numbers they are quoting.
Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.
Abode Engineering

Nicholas Caton's picture
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Joined: 2014-12-09
Reputation: 0

Hello all,

Thank you so much for the valuable input. The windows wouldn't consume more
than 150W. They have some special coatings to reflect the heat off of the
inner surface of the outer window, thereby keeping most of the heat within,
and thus effecting having a much lower U value than passive windows (that's
what the manufacturer claims). I intend to model that, and then compare
that with an experimental setup to see what is really happening.

I'll look through the older treads attached to the mail, and see how
baseboard heating works for my setup.

Thank you all again!

Sincerely,
Hari

Hari Jammulamadaka's picture
Joined: 2015-07-30
Reputation: 0

It seems to me that the easiest manipulation would be to modify the windows U-value. You are in essence saying that all or a portion of the heat transfer of cold air in the winter would be cancelled by the coating. Then you could add a false plug load to account for the electricity consumed.

David Berty, P.E.
Baseline Energy Consulting
317.220.9272

----- Reply message -----
From: "Hari Jammulamadaka"
To: "John Aulbach"
Cc: "equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org"
Subject: [Equest-users] Modelling Heated Windows in eQuest
Date: Wed, Jul 29, 2015 10:22 PM

Hello all,

Thank you so much for the valuable input. The windows wouldn't consume more than 150W. They have some special coatings to reflect the heat off of the inner surface of the outer window, thereby keeping most of the heat within, and thus effecting having a much lower U value than passive windows (that's what the manufacturer claims). I intend to model that, and then compare that with an experimental setup to see what is really happening.

I'll look through the older treads attached to the mail, and see how baseboard heating works for my setup.

Thank you all again!

Sincerely,
Hari
Hari:

Could you possibly use Baseboard heating to simulate the heated windows? Baseboards are usually under windows anyway to mitigate transmission loads. Not sure how you measure the kBtu/kW of your windows, but you can translate into the same heating capacity.

See if the offered eQuest controls for Baseboard satisfy your requirements on the windows.

BASEBOARD-CTRL
Takes a code-word that specifies the control method for baseboard heating in the zone. Defines the control method as THERMOSTATIC using HEAT-TEMP-SCH as the setpoints, or OUTDOOR-RESET to allow BASEBOARD-SCH reset control. This is a zone-level keyword for PLENUM-type zones; it allows "baseboards" to be placed in plenums and allows the simulation of outside or space temperature controlled heaters in the return air space. The plenum heater is activated based on outside air temperature and reset schedule when it is outside controlled. When it is space temperature controlled, and if the interaction with the return air does not result in a temperature above the scheduled value, the heater is turned on. In either case, the source of energy input to the heater is defined by the specified or defaulted value for BASEBOARD-SOURCE. See also BASEBOARD-CTRL, THROTTLING-RANGE and BASEBOARD-RATING. Input for this keyword is the code-word that specifies the method used for controlling the output of the baseboard heating element in the zone.

THERMOSTATIC Baseboard heating is controlled by a thermostat located in the zone. The program assumes that the baseboards add heat as required, up to their maximum capacity, to maintain zone air temperature within the heating throttling range.If there is a heating load the baseboards are sequenced on first. If the baseboards cannot meet the entire heating load, heating from the zone's air system, if available, will then be activated.

OUTDOOR-RESET Baseboard heating is controlled by a thermostat located outside the building. In this case the program assumes that the baseboard heating output increases linearly as the outside air temperature decreases. The linear function and the operating period are defined by SYSTEM:BASEBOARD-SCH.

John R. Aulbach, PE
Los Angeles Ca

Hello,

I am trying to model a building with heated windows (windows with heating elements). The windows are not meant for comfort heating of the building. Just localized heating for improving the comfort conditions in the building. I have looked all over and couldn't find a way to model them. Can someone suggest how I could go about this in eQuest?

Thank you.

Sincerely,
Hari

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." --Mark Twain

_______________________________________________
Equest-users mailing list
http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG

David Berty's picture
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Joined: 2015-07-31
Reputation: 0

Further to that approach: there exists an option under switchable glazing
to toggle glass properties via OA temperature.

I personally remain unconvinced of the science/marketing behind the
?effective? overall U-value brought about by a reflective film. On a
conceptual level, I understand how taping aluminum foil to the outside of a
normal pane of glass, or replacing your glazing with a mirror, would help
bounce back radiative heat losses. I remain skeptical of the notion this
can be equated to an overall effect on the *conductive* heat gains/losses
through a typical window.

As always, use your best judgement ? your simulation outputs are only as
strong as your inputs!

~Nick

*NICK CATON, P.E.*
*Owner*

*Caton Energy Consulting*
306 N Ferrel

Olathe, KS 66061

office: 785.410.3317

www.catonenergy.com

*From:* Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On
Behalf Of *David Berty
*Sent:* Thursday, July 30, 2015 11:32 AM
*To:* Hari Jammulamadaka; John Aulbach
*Cc:* equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
*Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] Modelling Heated Windows in eQuest

It seems to me that the easiest manipulation would be to modify the windows
U-value. You are in essence saying that all or a portion of the heat
transfer of cold air in the winter would be cancelled by the coating. Then
you could add a false plug load to account for the electricity consumed.

David Berty, P.E.

Baseline Energy Consulting

317.220.9272

----- Reply message -----
From: "Hari Jammulamadaka"
To: "John Aulbach"
Cc: "equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org" Subject: [Equest-users] Modelling Heated Windows in eQuest
Date: Wed, Jul 29, 2015 10:22 PM

Hello all,

Thank you so much for the valuable input. The windows wouldn't consume more
than 150W. They have some special coatings to reflect the heat off of the
inner surface of the outer window, thereby keeping most of the heat within,
and thus effecting having a much lower U value than passive windows (that's
what the manufacturer claims). I intend to model that, and then compare
that with an experimental setup to see what is really happening.

I'll look through the older treads attached to the mail, and see how
baseboard heating works for my setup.

Thank you all again!

Sincerely,
Hari

Hari:

Could you possibly use Baseboard heating to simulate the heated windows?
Baseboards are usually under windows anyway to mitigate transmission loads.
Not sure how you measure the kBtu/kW of your windows, but you can translate
into the same heating capacity.

See if the offered eQuest controls for Baseboard satisfy your requirements
on the windows.

BASEBOARD-CTRL

Takes a code-word that specifies the control method for baseboard heating
in the zone. Defines the control method as THERMOSTATIC using HEAT-TEMP-SCH
as the setpoints, or OUTDOOR-RESET to allow BASEBOARD-SCH reset control.
This is a zone-level keyword for PLENUM-type zones; it allows "baseboards"
to be placed in plenums and allows the simulation of outside or space
temperature controlled heaters in the return air space. The plenum heater
is activated based on outside air temperature and reset schedule when it is
outside controlled. When it is space temperature controlled, and if the
interaction with the return air does not result in a temperature above the
scheduled value, the heater is turned on. In either case, the source of
energy input to the heater is defined by the specified or defaulted value
for BASEBOARD-SOURCE. See also BASEBOARD-CTRL, THROTTLING-RANGE and
BASEBOARD-RATING. Input for this keyword is the code-word that specifies
the method used for controlling the output of the baseboard heating element
in the zone.

THERMOSTATIC Baseboard heating is controlled by a thermostat
located in the zone. The program assumes that the baseboards add heat as
required, up to their maximum capacity, to maintain zone air temperature
within the heating throttling range.If there is a heating load the
baseboards are sequenced on first. If the baseboards cannot meet the entire
heating load, heating from the zone's air system, if available, will then
be activated.

OUTDOOR-RESET Baseboard heating is controlled by a thermostat
located outside the building. In this case the program assumes that the
baseboard heating output increases linearly as the outside air temperature
decreases. The linear function and the operating period are defined by
SYSTEM:BASEBOARD-SCH.

John R. Aulbach, PE

Los Angeles Ca

On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 6:49 AM, Hari Jammulamadaka <

Hello,

I am trying to model a building with heated windows (windows with heating
elements). The windows are not meant for comfort heating of the building.
Just localized heating for improving the comfort conditions in the
building. I have looked all over and couldn't find a way to model them. Can
someone suggest how I could go about this in eQuest?

Thank you.

Sincerely,

Hari

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." --Mark Twain

_______________________________________________
Equest-users mailing list
http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to
EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG

Nicholas Caton's picture
Offline
Joined: 2014-12-09
Reputation: 0

>From the same people who brought your Texture Cote (sp), and how putting this thin texture on a house increases U-Value.

#yiv3187065027 #yiv3187065027 -- _filtered #yiv3187065027 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3187065027 {panose-1:2 2 6 9 4 2 5 8 3 4;} _filtered #yiv3187065027 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3187065027 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3187065027 {font-family:Verdana;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3187065027 {panose-1:2 2 6 9 4 2 5 8 3 4;}#yiv3187065027 #yiv3187065027 p.yiv3187065027MsoNormal, #yiv3187065027 li.yiv3187065027MsoNormal, #yiv3187065027 div.yiv3187065027MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv3187065027 h5 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold;}#yiv3187065027 a:link, #yiv3187065027 span.yiv3187065027MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3187065027 a:visited, #yiv3187065027 span.yiv3187065027MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3187065027 p {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv3187065027 span.yiv3187065027Heading5Char {color:#2E74B5;}#yiv3187065027 span.yiv3187065027EmailStyle19 {color:#002060;}#yiv3187065027 .yiv3187065027MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv3187065027 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv3187065027 div.yiv3187065027WordSection1 {}#yiv3187065027 Further to that approach:? there exists an option under switchable glazing to toggle glass properties via OA temperature.?I personally remain unconvinced of the science/marketing behind the ?effective? overall U-value brought about by a reflective film.? On a conceptual level, I understand how taping aluminum foil to the outside of a normal pane of glass, or replacing your glazing with a mirror, would help bounce back radiative heat losses.? I remain skeptical of the notion this can be equated to an overall effect on the conductive heat gains/losses through a typical window.? ?As always, use your best judgement ? your simulation outputs are only as strong as your inputs!?~Nick?NICK CATON, P.E.
Owner?Caton Energy Consulting
? 306 N Ferrel? Olathe, KS? 66061? office:? 785.410.3317www.catonenergy.com?

John Aulbach's picture
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