Discomfort hrs

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Hi All,
In one of project my basline building was having packaged syngle
zone system but after running i am getting lot of unmet hours for PSZ system
for each zone almost 450 hrs for basline.

Can any suggest some solution.

Thanks
Sambhav.

sambhav tiwari's picture
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Have you tried cycling your fans? If you'r doing this for ASHRAE compliance you need to do this anyway.

Vikram Sami2's picture
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If there are more than one zone assigned to the PZS, then remove the
thermostats to the extra zones. This happened to me when i attached an
unconditioned plenum space to a PZS space.

rdh4176's picture
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Yes. Only put the heating temp schedules and cooling temp schedules in the
zone you have selected as the Control Zone. If you use the Spreadsheet
option you will be able to do this easily. Use the drop down menu and select
Undefined for all other zones.

Carol

cmg750's picture
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I have a two story building. For the baseline I am evenly distributing the
fenestration.

The first floor window area is 462.2 ft^2
The second floor window area is 647.1 ft^2

The first floor wall area is 4858 ft^2
The second floor wall area is 4858 ft^2

In the base line model do I use:

First floor 9.5%
Second floor 13.3%

OR

First floor 11.4%
Second floor 11.4%

Jeurek's picture
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I think you use 11.4%

Vikram Sami2's picture
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John,

I'm assuming you are using ASHRAE 90.1-2007 Appendix G for your Baseline?
If so, the way I read it from Table G3.1 is that you should evenly distribute the WWR of the entire building, not for each floor. Therefore I would use 11.4% for each floor.

Luke

Wilson, Luke's picture
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I can't find this section in Table 1.3.? I just find the 40% limitation for
the baseline building. Can you post an excerpt?

Best regards

?
Johannes

-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] Im Auftrag von Wilson, Luke
Gesendet: Dienstag, 13. April 2010 17:18
An: Eurek, John S NWO; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Betreff: Re: [Bldg-sim] Easy Question

John,

I'm assuming you are using ASHRAE 90.1-2007 Appendix G for your Baseline?
If so, the way I read it from Table G3.1 is that you should evenly distribute
the WWR of the entire building, not for each floor. Therefore I would use
11.4% for each floor.

Luke

Hopf Johannes's picture
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ASHRAE 90.1-2007 Table G3.1 reads:
"Vertical fenestration areas for new buildings and additions shall equal that in the proposed design or 40% of gross above-grade wall area, whichever is smaller, and shall be distributed on each face of the building in the same proportions in the proposed design."

I wasn't aware that this requirement had changed in the 2007 version (thanks Cam!).

Luke

Wilson, Luke's picture
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I'm going to say it depends. Where are these numbers from? Are you using
eQUEST perchance?

Carol

cmg750's picture
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Interesting point. I've never noticed this before, but this is different from 2004.
?
2004 stated :
?
Vertical fenestration areas for new buildings and additions shall equal that in the proposed design or 40% of gross abovegrade wall area, whichever is smaller, and shall be distributed uniformly in horizontal bands across the four orientations.
?
It looks like they have changed it (shall be distributed on each face of the building in the same proportions in the proposed design) to be more representative of the actualy building. I think 2007 is asking you to distibute it by orientation (if you have 40% on the west, 25% south, 20%north and 25% east in your design, you will have 40% on the west, 25% south, 20%north and 25% east in your baseline). This makes sense because otherwise we were doing the striping as well as the 4 rotations which was a little redndant.
?
(Not so easy question after all, but a good one).
?

Vikram Sami2's picture
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For the 90.1-2004 I have always taken it as Luke explained, evenly distributed the WWR of the entire building.

However for 90.1-2007 I have interpreted the description to mean that the windows stay in the same location as the proposed building?

Rimes, Christie's picture
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Perhaps I'm missing something, but didn't he ask us how to *calculate *the
window to wall ratio? If I'm not missing something, we need to know
specifically, is the wall number wall only or wall + glass. This level of
information is shown on the LV-D report in eQUEST, if he's using eQUEST.
That's why I said, "it depends".

Carol

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All,

As per Addendum A to 90.1-2004, you do NOT need to distribute the baseline glazing uniformly in horizontal bands across the four orientations. ASHRAE 90.1-2007 is basically 90.1-2004 incorporating the changes made in Addendum A. All addenda can be found here: http://www.ashrae.org/technology/page/132

If you read Table G3.1.5, it only states that the glass must not exceed 40% and must be distributed by the same proportions as the proposed building. Therefore, if you have a building with 50% WWR, you just have to reduce each window by 20%. This will still ensure that you have the same proportions (e.g. 20% of all of the glass on the north, 30% of all of the glass on the south, 40% of all of the glass on the east, and 10% of all of the glass on the west).

If your baseline WWR is less than 40%, then leave the window proportions, shapes, and sizes the same in the baseline and the proposed design.

This has all been well documented on the archives as well: http://lists.onebuilding.org/htdig.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/2007-April/004077.html

Regards,

Dana Troy

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Easy Question; Ha,

I did not specify which version I was using.

I am on LEED V2.2 hence ASHRAE Standard 30.1-2004.

My question is about interpitation rather than programming but I am using
Trace 700.
(I am still looking for an completed Trace file for LEED so I can see an
example or somebody to offer a good argument to us E-quest so I can purpose
it to management.)

The answer I received to my first question (See below) seemed to be that the
windows are to be spread evenly over the entire building. Every exterior
wall will have the same percent window area (up to the maximum of 40%) Thank
you all for your interpretation.

Second Question:

I plan on modeling the mechanical room, vestibules and stair wells as heating
only. I am in climate zone 5B and according to 90.1-2004 Table 3.1 if the
heating output is less than 15btu/h*ft^2 but greater that 3.4btu/h*ft^2
according to 90.1-2004 section 3.2 definitions it is considered semiheated.

Should I spead the fenestration arcoss the walls of the semiheated spaces?
(I've come to terms with the fact that my server rooms will now have windows
in the baseline.)

Original Question: (has been answered)
I have a two story building. For the baseline I am evenly distributing the
fenestration.

The first floor window area is 462.2 ft^2
The second floor window area is 647.1 ft^2

The first floor wall area is 4858 ft^2
The second floor wall area is 4858 ft^2

In the base line model do I use:

First floor 9.5%
Second floor 13.3%

OR

First floor 11.4%
Second floor 11.4%

Jeurek's picture
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If you apply 'addendum a' to 90.1-2004, you don't have to distribute windows evenly across the fa?ade. There are a couple of additional changes in addendum a, including supply air temperature reset of 5 deg F (instead of the original 10 deg F) and a building area change to Table G3.1.1A that would also have to be applied since addenda are acceptable as long as they are applied in full.

BILL TALBERT ?PE, LEED? AP

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Okay know it is clear,

I think the 2007 way is the more correct one. Why should you make one zone
artificial worse and on better? (If you have different WWR in different
Zones)

Johannes

Drees & Sommer Advanced Building Technologies GmbH, Sitz in Stuttgart

Gesch?ftsf?hrung: Prof. Dr.-Ing. Michael Bauer, Thomas Hofbauer, Martin Lutz,
Peter Tzeschlock

Handelsregistereintrag: Amtsgericht Stuttgart, HRB 725796

Von: bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] Im Auftrag von Dana Troy
Gesendet: Dienstag, 13. April 2010 21:16
An: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Betreff: Re: [Bldg-sim] Easy Question

All,

As per Addendum A to 90.1-2004, you do NOT need to distribute the baseline
glazing uniformly in horizontal bands across the four orientations. ASHRAE
90.1-2007 is basically 90.1-2004 incorporating the changes made in Addendum
A. All addenda can be found here: http://www.ashrae.org/technology/page/132

If you read Table G3.1.5, it only states that the glass must not exceed 40%
and must be distributed by the same proportions as the proposed building.
Therefore, if you have a building with 50% WWR, you just have to reduce each
window by 20%. This will still ensure that you have the same proportions
(e.g. 20% of all of the glass on the north, 30% of all of the glass on the
south, 40% of all of the glass on the east, and 10% of all of the glass on
the west).

If your baseline WWR is less than 40%, then leave the window proportions,
shapes, and sizes the same in the baseline and the proposed design.

This has all been well documented on the archives as well:
http://lists.onebuilding.org/htdig.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/2007-April/00
4077.html

Regards,

Dana Troy

Hopf Johannes's picture
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Is maximum 40%WWR intended to apply to gross building or to principal
exposures? Assume 4 exposures: 1: 30% wall (100% window), 2: 20% wall (0%
window), 3: 30% wall (0% window), 4: 20% wall (0% window). Building WWR =
30%. Would baseline window WWR match exposure 1 of design case at 100%WWR?
Prior to 2004 addendum #1, (equalized banding) would have modeled all
baseline walls at 30%, but now will match proportions of design case, even
if an exposure exceeds 40% - (and proportionally reduce all exposures only
if building WWR exceeds 40%)?

Rodney Boerman's picture
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Good question. Appendix G says "40% of gross above-grade wall area" which leads me to believe that the 40% applies to the entire building WWR, not each exposure's WWR. Appendix G also says "shall be distributed on each face of the building in the same proportions in the proposed design".

Luke

Wilson, Luke's picture
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