NECB 2011 - Interpretation of 4.3.2.10

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Hello,

Quick question about the NECB 2011 (Section 4.3.2.10). There are different factors (credits to account for):

- "Personal control"

- "Occupancy-Sensing Mechanism - Manual"

- "Occupancy-Sensing Mechanism - Automatic"

What is meant by each of these? I'm assuming:

- Personal Control - An on/off switch or task light.

- Occupancy-Sensing Mechanism - Manual: A push-button for an occupancy override with timer (no switch).

- Occupancy-Sensing Mechanism - Automatic: An automatic occupancy sensor.

If anyone can confirm my interpretation is correct, that would be great. Thanks.

[cid:image003.jpg at 01CF9B6D.99F34030]Danielle Krauel, ing., P.Eng., LEED AP
Halsall Associates
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Krauel, Danielle's picture
Joined: 2011-10-02
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Hi Danielle -

I don't have a quick answer to your question but just to let you and other interested individuals know the Users' Guide for the NECB 2011 is now available (released a couple weeks back) for purchase at the following link https://commerce-irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/nrcb2c/b2c/display/(xcm=NRC-R3PITREX&layout=6_1_65_54_5_2&uiarea=2&ctype=areaDetails&carea=0000000064)/.do

Devin Evenson, P.Eng. CEM, CMVP
Manitoba Hydro | Customer Engineering Services
General Mail: PO Box 815 STN Mail | Winnipeg, MB | R3C 2P4
Courier: 6-360 Portage Ave | Winnipeg, MB | R3C 0G8
tel. 204-360-3971 | fax 204-360-6109
devenson at hydro.mb.ca

Evenson, Devin's picture
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Hello Danielle,

I tend to agree with your interpretation.

Personal control is definitely an on/off switch controlled by individuals.
If you double check Table 4.3.2.10.A., you will find only handful spaces
allow such credit, i.e. laboratory, office, Judges' chambers, and patient
rm.

For automatic control device that is capable of turning off lighting
without occupant intervention, the general options include time schedule
and sensing occupants in the space. Occupancy-Sensing Mechanism ? Automatic
will yield better lighting savings in this manner.

Regards,

Cheney

LinkedIN @
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/yu-cheney-chen-ph-d-bemp-leed-ap-bd-c/27/637/72b

chen yu's picture
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Hi Danielle,

I think your assumptions sound reasonable - they provide more credit for
automatic occupancy sensor than manual but hopefully the Users Guide will
help clarify.

Devin, thanks for the heads up on the guide but the link provided didn't
work for me. For others, if you go to the link below then click on
"Construction Publications" then "2011 National Energy Code for Buildings"
you should find the guide available for purchase.

http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/eng/virtual_store/index.html

Aaron

Aaron Smith, P.Eng

M&R Engineering

Aaron Smith's picture
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Hi Danielle.

Based on a proposed code change that's proposed for inclusion in NECB 2015, which clarify the description, this is what I understand it is :

- "Personal control" => Full manual on/off control

- "Occupancy-Sensing Mechanism - Manual" => Full manual on/off control (i.e. same as above)

- "Occupancy-Sensing Mechanism - Automatic" => full auto on/off control

Other type of controls (bi-level, auto off/manual on) are not accounted for in NECB 2011 Section 4.3.

Regards,

[http://www.pageaumorel.com/signature/pma_sign.gif]

Fr?d?ric Genest,

Pageau Morel et associ?s inc.

ing., M.Sc.A., PA LEED BD+C / Eng., M.A.Sc., LEED AP BD+C
ASHRAE HBDP
Charg? de projet / Project Manager
Associ? / Associate
fgenest at pageaumorel.com

210, boul. Cr?mazie O., bur. 110
Montr?al (Qu?bec) H2P 1C6
T 514.382.5150 (2203)
F 514.384.9872
www.pageaumorel.com

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De : Evenson, Devin [mailto:DEvenson at hydro.mb.ca]
Envoy? : 9 juillet 2014 12:57
? : 'Krauel, Danielle'; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org; IBPSA-GTA-L at listserv.utoronto.ca
Objet : Re: [Bldg-sim] NECB 2011 - Interpretation of 4.3.2.10

Hi Danielle -

I don't have a quick answer to your question but just to let you and other interested individuals know the Users' Guide for the NECB 2011 is now available (released a couple weeks back) for purchase at the following link https://commerce-irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/nrcb2c/b2c/display/(xcm=NRC-R3PITREX&layout=6_1_65_54_5_2&uiarea=2&ctype=areaDetails&carea=0000000064)/.do

Devin Evenson, P.Eng. CEM, CMVP
Manitoba Hydro | Customer Engineering Services
General Mail: PO Box 815 STN Mail | Winnipeg, MB | R3C 2P4
Courier: 6-360 Portage Ave | Winnipeg, MB | R3C 0G8
tel. 204-360-3971 | fax 204-360-6109
devenson at hydro.mb.ca

Genest, Frederic's picture
Joined: 2011-10-02
Reputation: 0

Hello Frederic,

How are you?

So there is no difference between Personal control and Occupancy-Sensing
Mechanism ? Manual? Taking Patient room in table 4.3.2.10.A as an example,
it has both Relative Absence of Occupants factor 0.1 and Personal control
factor 0.1. When a full manual on/off control is installed in such room,
both Occupancy control and personal control factors can be claimed? If not,
which one should be claimed in this case, since it generates different
control factors eventually?

Regards,

Cheney

LinkedIN @
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/yu-cheney-chen-ph-d-bemp-leed-ap-bd-c/27/637/72b

chen yu's picture
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Joined: 2011-10-02
Reputation: 200

Hello Cheney.

Never been confronted with the case, so I?m eduguessing my way though the Trade-off Path.

Since the reference case never has any ?personal control?, I gather that it implies ?task lighting? while ?occupancy-sensing mechanism ? manual? implies ?general space control?.

Since personal control has a low factor (0.1), I don?t see a big problem with taking credit for both cases.

So, somewhat correcting my initial interpretation:

- Personnal control = manual on/off control assigned to a single individual and normally related to task lighting or similar application

- Occupancy-Sensing Mechanism = general space control

o Manual = on/off switch

o Automatic = motion detector or the like, switching on/off automatically

My two cents!

[http://www.pageaumorel.com/signature/pma_sign.gif]

Fr?d?ric Genest,

Pageau Morel et associ?s inc.

ing., M.Sc.A., PA LEED BD+C / Eng., M.A.Sc., LEED AP BD+C
ASHRAE HBDP
Charg? de projet / Project Manager
Associ? / Associate
fgenest at pageaumorel.com

210, boul. Cr?mazie O., bur. 110
Montr?al (Qu?bec) H2P 1C6
T 514.382.5150 (2203)
F 514.384.9872
www.pageaumorel.com

Poser un geste ?colo : un engagement infini! Est-ce vraiment n?cessaire d'imprimer ce courriel?
A green act: a commitment for infinity! Save trees. Print only when necessary.

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De : Cheney [mailto:chenyu73 at gmail.com]
Envoy? : 9 juillet 2014 18:22
? : Genest, Frederic
Cc : Krauel, Danielle; bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org; IBPSA-GTA-L at listserv.utoronto.ca
Objet : Re: [Bldg-sim] NECB 2011 - Interpretation of 4.3.2.10

Hello Frederic,

How are you?

So there is no difference between Personal control and Occupancy-Sensing Mechanism ? Manual? Taking Patient room in table 4.3.2.10.A as an example, it has both Relative Absence of Occupants factor 0.1 and Personal control factor 0.1. When a full manual on/off control is installed in such room, both Occupancy control and personal control factors can be claimed? If not, which one should be claimed in this case, since it generates different control factors eventually?

Regards,

Cheney

LinkedIN @ http://www.linkedin.com/pub/yu-cheney-chen-ph-d-bemp-leed-ap-bd-c/27/637/72b

Genest, Frederic's picture
Joined: 2011-10-02
Reputation: 0

Thank you, Frederic, for the clarification.

Now the new question is, which category time-scheduling devices belong to?
Am I right to say it is kind of automatic? Apparently ASHRAE treats
time-scheduling and occupant-sensing devices differently (Table G 3.2 in
Appendix G). If they are under the same category in NECB, time-scheduling
devices probably are overcredited? But certainly I don't think
time-scheduling will be the same as manual on/off switch.

Regards,

Cheney

LinkedIN @
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/yu-cheney-chen-ph-d-bemp-leed-ap-bd-c/27/637/72b

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