Expert advice on Wall Insulation study in eQuest

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Dear All,

We are working on a national level research project in India. A building
envelope analysis is a part of this project. By doing analysis, we have
found a vague results in trend (linearly downward) of reduction in energy
consumption with reducing wall U-value in eQUEST.

Theoretically, the energy consumption should approach to stagnant with
reduction in wall U-value.

Please refer figure.

Appreciate if anyone put light on this.

Thank you.

Regards,

Mayank Bhatnagar

Theoretical should come like this.
[image: Inline image 1]

In eQuest the trend is-
[image: Inline image 2]

Mayank Bhatnagar's picture
Joined: 2011-10-02
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Mayank,

I think we need to know a bit more about the building:
- Location (some parts of India are cool, others hot!)
- Building usage - office, domestic, retail? Hours of use?
- Servicing - heating and cooling? Mechanical or natural vent?

Regards,

*Dr Claire Das Bhaumik CEng FCIBSE*

*Partner - Inkling LLP*

e: claire at inklingllp.com

t: 07950 282800

w: www.inklingllp.com

Follow us on Twitter: @DasInkling

Partnership No. OC367619

Claire Das Bhaumik3's picture
Joined: 2015-04-23
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Hi Claire,

Thanks for your response.

The analysis has been done on an 8 hour operating office building in New
Delhi. The mechanical system is packaged single zone system with electric
resistance heating.

Please let me know if you need more information.

Thanks

Regards,
Mayank

Mayank Bhatnagar's picture
Joined: 2011-10-02
Reputation: 0

The results look reasonably close to those expected but that you haven't
reached the far enough down the curve yet to see it stagnating? Either that
or there are some other factors in the model which become more less
significant with reducing U-value?

*Dr Claire Das Bhaumik CEng FCIBSE*

*Partner - Inkling LLP*

e: claire at inklingllp.com

t: 07950 282800

w: www.inklingllp.com

Follow us on Twitter: @DasInkling

Partnership No. OC367619

Claire Das Bhaumik3's picture
Joined: 2015-04-23
Reputation: 0

Hi Claire,

Thanks for your response.

The analysis has been done on an 8 hour operating office building in New
Delhi. The mechanical system is packaged single zone system with electric
resistance heating.

Please let me know if you need more information.

Thanks

Regards,
Mayank

Mayank Bhatnagar's picture
Joined: 2011-10-02
Reputation: 0

Hi Mayank,

I recommend opening up the SIM file (you can do this by going to Tools -> View Simulation Output) and looking at the LS-C and LV-D reports. In the LS-C report you can find the contribution to the peak heating and cooling loads that come from the walls. From this you should be able to figure out how the wall conduction is changing as a fraction of the peak loads as you decrease the wall U-value. In the LV-D report (scroll to the very end of it) there is a summary of the U-values for each exterior surface. This might be a good place to look to make sure that the effective U-values that eQUEST is simulating are matching up with your expectations of what the U-values should be.

I would agree that the energy savings should saturate at some point.

All the best,
Dan

?
Daniel Knapp, PhD, PPhys, LEED? AP O+M
danielk at arborus.ca

Arborus Consulting
Energy Strategies for the Built Environment
www.arborus.ca
76 Chamberlain Avenue
Ottawa, ON, K1S 1V9
Phone: (613) 234-7178 ext. 113
Fax: (613) 234-0740

Daniel Knapp's picture
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Mayank, Daniel,

I think it's a good idea to look at the component loads in the LS-C
reports, but I want to add some words of caution.
The loads (actually heat flows) shown in those reports are calculated at
the constant Reference Temperature, and categorized as either heating or
cooling if the total load of the building that hour is negative or
positive. These loads are corrected when DOE-2 solves for the actual
room temperature based on simple UA-deltaT principles. If you want the
corrected wall loads, you need to get an hourly report of the wall loads
and then correct for the temperature difference Troom - Treference.

I'm not sure if this level of detail is warranted, though. I also
suspect there's some other compounding effect that's giving you the
results that you report.

Joe

Joe Huang
White Box Technologies, Inc.
346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A
Moraga CA 94556
yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com
http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data
http://www.whiteboxtechnologies.com
(o) (925)388-0265
(c) (510)928-2683
"building energy simulations at your fingertips"

Joe Huang's picture
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Reputation: 406

As a standard rule, please post the eQUEST file you are using to get these results, so we can see what other inputs may be affecting the outputs.

The reason for using an energy model is to capture the interactive effect of all building components when one item is changed, so the intuitive answer may not be the actual answer in any one specific scenario.

Regards,

David Griffin, BEMP
Senior Energy Analyst

ARCHITECTURAL
NEXUS
2505 E Parleys Way
Salt Lake City, UT 84109

Office 801.924.5000
Direct 801.924.5028

archnexus.com | blog | facebook | youtube

David Griffin II's picture
Joined: 2015-01-03
Reputation: 0

Hi Mayank,

I think on further reflection you are seeing exactly what you should be seeing. The energy consumption should go down linearly with the U-value. What does saturate is the energy savings compared to insulation thickness or R-value which is plotted as 1/U. Here is a graph of energy vs. U and energy vs R for your building:

All the best,
Dan

?
Daniel Knapp, PhD, PPhys, LEED? AP O+M
danielk at arborus.ca

Arborus Consulting
Energy Strategies for the Built Environment
www.arborus.ca
76 Chamberlain Avenue
Ottawa, ON, K1S 1V9
Phone: (613) 234-7178 ext. 113
Fax: (613) 234-0740

Daniel Knapp's picture
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Dan,

Very good point! I didn't even think about this, i.e., that the plot was against
conductance and not resistance.
Therefore, I would conclude that eQUEST is behaving properly.

Joe

Joe Huang
White Box Technologies, Inc.
346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A
Moraga CA 94556
yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com
http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data
(o) (925)388-0265
(c) (510)928-2683
"building energy simulations at your fingertips"

Joe Huang's picture
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Reputation: 406

Great discussion!

Since this thread has clearly gathered attentions of the right individuals,
I?d like to layer on a query which may further inform Mayank?s efforts:

Is the ?law of diminishing returns? as you improve envelope insulation
universal to ALL climates, in practice or in theory? While I have reliably
observed such behavior exploring comparable ECM?s in temperate climates, I
am curious whether tropical or arctic climates should expect (all else
being equal) a relatively ?flatter? curve when plotting R-value against
annual energy savings?

My gut tells me the reduced opportunity to leverage airside economizer
function or operable windows would make incremental insulation increases
more attractive for annual energy consumption, but experience has taught me
to question my gut on such matters (?Thanks Joe!).

Regards,

~Nick

*NICK CATON, P.E.*
*Owner*

*Caton Energy Consulting*
1150 N. 192nd St., #4-202

Shoreline, WA 98133
office: 785.410.3317

www.catonenergy.com

*From:* Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] *On
Behalf Of *Joe Huang
*Sent:* Tuesday, April 28, 2015 11:56 AM
*To:* Daniel Knapp; Mayank Bhatnagar
*Cc:* eQUEST Users List
*Subject:* Re: [Equest-users] [Bldg-sim] Expert advice on Wall Insulation
study in eQuest

Dan,

Very good point! I didn't even think about this, i.e., that the plot was
against conductance and not resistance.
Therefore, I would conclude that eQUEST is behaving properly.

Joe

Joe Huang

White Box Technologies, Inc.

346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A

Moraga CA 94556

yjhuang at whiteboxtechnologies.com

http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com for simulation-ready weather data

(o) (925)388-0265

(c) (510)928-2683

"building energy simulations at your fingertips"

Nicholas Caton's picture
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After seeing Nick?s comment I thought I would add my 2 cents just being in Alaska and constantly dealing with insulation issues.

The winter obviously puts high demands for heating and ventilation and I think every building we?ve upgraded for energy efficiency has seen substantial improvements in energy savings.
But many of our clients insist on ?more insulation is better? in arctic conditions without really understanding the effects over an entire year.

On some projects I?ve seen R-80+ systems with 18? wall buildups. Not to mention R80-90+ roof buildups (14?-16? thick) which obviously improve the overall heating performance ? especially given our heating systems are typically operating more than 6 months out of the year.

But there is a tradeoff.

We typically get around 4-1/2 months of 60-90 degree weather up here. This puts a high demand on cooling systems during this period. You can easily end up with a building so heavily insulated that even in the mid 60?s outside temp range the cooling system may need to operate unless all the doors and windows were opened up? which isn?t always possible because of security reasons.

The buildings become too efficient at retaining heat to the degree that the cooling demand is higher to basically fight the building during summer months to maintain temp setpoints.

Also, Many buildings in Alaska do not have cooling systems so when you increase R-value and U-value to a certain threshold you are in some ways ?biting the bullet? with regard to adding appropriate ventilation and cooling systems capable of cancelling out the heat buildup in warmer weather (which offsets X dollar amount of energy savings provided during the winter months).

Fortunately, the end result in Alaska is usually a net cost savings just because heating costs in Alaska are so ridiculously high given most buildings use fuel-oil.

However, in theory, if you were to cut the cost of heating up here to a certain threshold the cost of cooling the building would eventually be higher than the cost of heating it in the winter months. At which point I imagine someone doing the classic face-palm.

-Chris

Chris Baker2's picture
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HI All,

How we present data is also important. Speaking of the "law of diminishing
returns" in a tropical climate, the scale / granularity of your graph can
make a relatively flat graph 'look' linear. In the case of New Delhi, as
indicated by the graph the the impact of 0.7 U-value versus 0.2 U-value is
about 0.4% difference in energy consumption per unit area. See below. I
expect this percentage to be higher for temperate climates and dependent on
the amount of exterior surface area (shape of the building) and the kind of
space types within the building.

[image: Inline image 1]
Regards

Ramya Shivkumar

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