DOAS with dehumidification

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Hello,

I am trying to model a DOAS that supplies conditioned outside air to
dwelling units. It also has an ERV. I have created a dummy zone with no
loads and made the setpoints for the dummy zones my desired heating and
cooling supply air temperatures (73F for heating and 75F for cooling).
However, the DOAS also has dehumidification in which it will operate in
cooling mode to dehumidify at >60% RH. There is no reheat coil, so when
the system is dehumidifying, the supply air temperature should drop below
the setpoint.

Here is the issue I'm having.... when I look at my hourly reports, I can
see that the air leaving the cooling coil will drop down to about 60F at
times when the system is dehumidifying. However, the dummy space is still
showing a space temperature of ~74F. How is this possible? Does anyone
have any ideas?

Thank you,
Mike C

via Equest-users's picture
Joined: 2016-07-15
Reputation: 400

Hi Michael,

The dehumidification process is the process to cool the air low-to dew
point temperature and have the condensate.
The dew point temperature is even below wet bulb temperature.
Also the wet bulb temperature is a temperature below dry bulb or the normal
air temperature.
Hence if the air is having some condensate then the cooling coil is
dehumidifying the air certainly below up-to dew point and then have the
condensate.
So may be the figure 60 F that you are looking is the below temperature low
seeming to be dew point temperature or the low temperature seeming to be
for having the possible condition to have water condensate and the
condensate can be formed at low valued temperature.

The low seeming value for having condensate temperature is possibly the dew
point temperature.

Then after the condensate formation then the latent heat of water of air
(moisture plus air i.e the normal air in surrounding) is taken into the air
(moisture left as condensate and left air) then that air aftermath the
cooling and condensing process is heated up-to 74F in the room.The dummy
room temperature is meeting the set points as the set-point is as per
sensor and controllers in the HVAC to be met.
I have read it before about the unmet load hours that it is the control
issue.
If the controllers and the HVAC design and the model is perfect then there
can not be unmet load hour so possibly the air temperature is with-in the
set-points and hence resulting less unmet load hour.

Thanks,

Sharad.Kumar|Engineer.

Green Horizon Consulting LLP.

Gurgaon.

India.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Michael Campbell via Equest-users
To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Cc:
Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 08:36:42 -0400
Subject: [Equest-users] DOAS with dehumidification
Hello,

I am trying to model a DOAS that supplies conditioned outside air to
dwelling units. It also has an ERV. I have created a dummy zone with no
loads and made the setpoints for the dummy zones my desired heating and
cooling supply air temperatures (73F for heating and 75F for cooling).
However, the DOAS also has dehumidification in which it will operate in
cooling mode to dehumidify at >60% RH. There is no reheat coil, so when
the system is dehumidifying, the supply air temperature should drop below
the setpoint.

Here is the issue I'm having.... when I look at my hourly reports, I can
see that the air leaving the cooling coil will drop down to about 60F at
times when the system is dehumidifying. However, the dummy space is still
showing a space temperature of ~74F. How is this possible? Does anyone
have any ideas?

Thank you,
Mike C

via Equest-users's picture
Joined: 2016-07-15
Reputation: 400

Mike,

Ref: Volume 2: Dictionary > HVAC Components > SYSTEM > Airside Control > Humidity Control > MAX-HUMIDITY

To my understanding, no explicit mode of doe2 dehumidification DOESN?T assume some form of reheat to deliver the specified/derived supply air temperature. In turn, I?m not certain whether it?s going to be easy to (a) force ?sub-cooling? without the use of a custom COOL-SET-SCH schedule (that?s where I?d suggest you go next with this), deriving the anticipated additional coil operations from the weather data and/or the model you?ve already built, and (b) transfer that ?sub-cooled? air reheating load to the other systems in your model.

Fair question before you dive further: is the associated reheating going to occur somewhere in the building anyway (i.e. by other systems), and as such would it be a major stretch to simply permit your dummy-zone DOAS perform that reheating? If that?s a reasonable analysis, you might not need to do anything else.

Of course, presence of ERV just layers on the fun. Frankly when ERV gets involved, that?s one of my primary drivers for shifting away from a dummy zone approach and approximating the DOAS system (and its ERV components) into the other conditioning systems to more directly capture what?s coming off the exhaust/relief stream.

~Nick

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nick Caton, P.E.

Senior Energy Engineer
Energy and Sustainability Services
North America Operations
Schneider Electric

D 913.564.6361
M 785.410.3317
E nicholas.caton at schneider-electric.com
F 913.564.6380

15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive
Suite 204
Lenexa, KS 66219
United States

via Equest-users's picture
Joined: 2016-07-15
Reputation: 400

Thanks for the reply Nick. The air will be conditioned by a secondary
system. The system is designed so the DOAS/ERV supplied "neutral" air
(~75F) to apartments and the space loads are met by split system heat pumps
in the apartments. So, if the system is dehumidifying, it is possible that
the DOAS could supply air at ~60F, and the assumption is that the heat
pumps in the apartments will be able to handle that additional load.

via Equest-users's picture
Joined: 2016-07-15
Reputation: 400

Awesome ? less work then!

With a little more verification/tinkering, you could make sure the dummy-DOAS?s reheat is leveraging a source type (heat pump) & efficiency to match whatever the secondary systems would be doing.

~Nick

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nick Caton, P.E.

Senior Energy Engineer
Energy and Sustainability Services
North America Operations
Schneider Electric

D 913.564.6361
M 785.410.3317
E nicholas.caton at schneider-electric.com
F 913.564.6380

15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive
Suite 204
Lenexa, KS 66219
United States

via Equest-users's picture
Joined: 2016-07-15
Reputation: 400